Fire alarms in public houses

[Guest]

[paul21]

I have been asked to quote on a fire alarm installation for a pub with accomodation above wich I think would need to be graded under part1 however the client is stating that the installation only requires mains linked smokes as the accomodation above will be used soloely by the owner manager making it a bit different , would welcome any advice on this awkward scenario.

[kurnal]

This is a three fold thing.
1- Does the pub need a fire alarm in its own right
2- Does a fire in the pub pose any risk to the occupants of the flat above
3- Does the flat need detection to warn of fires in the flat itself.

As a general rule hhe pub will need an electical  fire alarm and detection system in its own right unless it is possible to see the whole of the licensed area and rooms off from the bar - only the very smallest of pubs fall into this description. If the pub needs an alarm system then sound levels and entertainment etc will probably dictate a part 1 system.

If the pub has one hour fire resisting ceilings and the flat has a completely seperate and unconnected access stairway it is possible that there may not need to be any warning of a fire in the pub to sound in the flat..... but this is almost unheard of. So if the pub needs a part 1 alarm then there will need to be sounders upstairs and at least heat detection in bars and kitchens,  smoke in stairs depending on the degree of separation between the two and the layout.

The flat will need at least LD3 in its own right in addition to the sounders for the pub- it may be easier to provide detection in the flat linked to the part 1 system in the pub.


Finally if it is a tiny pub and the licenced parts dont need an electrical fire alarm system then a part 6 system will do with detectors in the bars interlinked to those upstairs.

[davio1960]

The main and most important part is the interpretation of the occupant.
Where an owner is in situ, his accommodation maybe read as domestic and the order does not apply.
If he is a manager would this accommodation be provided as workers accommodation under his contract of employment. The contract of employment may need to be viewed under article 27.
What about the owners/managers or tenants family... are these not relevent persons?

If a fire occurs in either area are not relevent persons at risks in "any place".

Therefore when the owner/tenent/manager is not at work,  he may still be classed as a relevent person at risk of fire from the "any place" ...the bar/celler/pub kitchen...etc

As Kurnal indicates a fire  alarm system may be required. In certain instances because of the domestic arrangements all that is needed is the ability to hear the alarm sounding yet in a similar  premises that is next door a Pt 1 L2 system may be needed.

I have come across several premises where the Fire resistance between floors has been rubbish and where it has been a premises with basement, ground, 1st and second floors, no fire alarm installed the local FA have served prohibition to the 1st and second floor...including office.

Good luck!
Davio1960

[The Colonel]

I'm just writing up a risk assessment on a pub with basement (beer Celler), ground floor bar, first floor bar and living accomodation, second floor office & living accomodation and the boiler room. Looks reasonably good in the public areas but get behind and oh boy what a situation. I have the fire authority prohibition notice and schedule of works in front of me and they are not a happy bunch.

FRS issued a prohibition notice for sleeping on the second floor because of;
lack of staff training and control of risks
fire risk assessment not suitable and sufficent (not mine)
fire alarm showing fault and no tests
emergency lighting not working
inadequate structural fire protection
exit doors locked or not openable
automatic fire detection not adequate for sleeping
some exit routes blocked.

Many pubs are like this but even with an alternate route from the 2nd floor its not good, even the 1st floor living accomodation is border line prohibition in my view.

Well the new manager has a lot to do but has made a determined start with the list and I am adding a few more to the list. thought long and hard about the fire alarm which had some smoke but mainly heat detection and precious few tests but after toying with a Part L3 have finally come down to an L2 system in view of the two seperate flats in the building, including 2nd floor and the uncertainty of some of the structural fire protection to stairs, ceilings etc.

Interesting  future for this one, may be going to the local bench

[jokar]

Interesting if the FRS have included all the above on a Prohibition Notice.  The Prohibition is supposedly to deal with esacpe issues only and to include only items that would take the premises out of prohibition.  This would be supported by an Enforcement Notice which would detail the other areas of non compliance.  For example the premises may have all the means of escape issues dealt with but may still have not complied with the Notice and therefore can not open due to a lck of training and that is ridiculous.

[The Colonel]

Joker

My apologies the list are the matters the fire authority believe give rise to a risk to persons sleeping and using as a place of assembly. The have reduced  numbers in a first floor bar as a result of a means of escape isssue, lack of control over numbers and staff training.

The sleeping accomodation has been restricted because of lack of automatic detection, doubts over structural fire protection, locked exits, partly blocked exits, fault on fire alarm panel, lack emergency lighting in some areas and not working in others.

All in all not a good place to live and work. Unfortunatly the client didnt give me copies of all the documents from the fire authority altough I did view them. When I have more I will up date you.

Many pubs living accomodation can only be accessed from the bar areas so even if its the owner living up there I think we all have a duty to point out how it will affect them and their families not just their staff. Yes the RRO protects the staff but those owners lives are worth something.

[PhilB]

Many pubs living accomodation can only be accessed from the bar areas so even if its the owner living up there I think we all have a duty to point out how it will affect them and their families not just their staff. Yes the RRO protects the staff but those owners lives are worth something.

The owner and his/her family are relevant persons and their means of escape must be considered. Yes the private quarters are probably domestic and the order does not apply....but if the owner could be affected by a fire on the pub premises.....they are relevant persons.